Episode #436: Kevin Van Trump – Right here’s What’s Occurring With Ag Commodities
Visitor: Kevin Van Trump is the President and founding father of Farm Path and the Van Trump Report.
Date Recorded: 8/3/2022 | Run-Time: 55:53
Abstract: In at present’s episode, Kevin walks us via his early profession as a dealer to now working the Van Trump Report. Then we contact on wild yr for the ag commodities and listen to Kevin’s ideas on wheat, soybeans and corn. He touches on the influence of Chinese language demand and the shifts he’s seen within the ag markets over his profession.
Sponsor: AcreTrader – AcreTrader is an funding platform that makes it easy to personal shares of farmland and earn passive revenue, and you can begin investing in simply minutes on-line. If you happen to’re taken with a deeper understanding, and for extra data on how one can turn out to be a farmland investor via their platform, please go to acretrader.com/meb.
Feedback or strategies? Thinking about sponsoring an episode? E-mail us [email protected]
Hyperlinks from the Episode:
- 0:39 – Sponsor: AcreTrader
- 1:38 – Intro
- 2:14 – Welcome to our visitor, Kevin Van Trump
- 3:01 – Kevin’s origin as a dealer in Chicago
- 5:48 – How lengthy he’s been writing The Van Trump Report
- 11:43 – Characterizing his strategy as in investor
- 12:44 – Episode #431: Scott Reynolds Nelson; Kevin’s ideas on the wheat explosion this previous yr
- 16:14 – Kevin’s ideas on the present state of commodities
- 19:25 – China’s influence on commodity markets
- 22:32 – The position of the US greenback on commodity markets
- 28:33 – The modifications in know-how Kevin has seen in commodities and agriculture
- 34:00 – What Kevin says to buyers who’re searching for publicity to those sectors
- 44:50 – Classes from Kevin’s buying and selling in his profession
- 47:08 – Kevin’s most memorable funding
- 50:21 – What’s FARMCON?
- 52:48 – Be taught extra about Kevin; vantrumpreport.com; Twitter @kevinvantrump
Transcript:
Welcome Message: Welcome to “The Meb Faber Present” the place the main target is on serving to you develop and protect your wealth. Be part of us as we focus on the craft of investing and uncover new and worthwhile concepts, all that will help you develop wealthier and wiser. Higher investing begins right here.
Disclaimer: Meb Faber is the co-founder and chief funding officer at Cambria Funding Administration. As a consequence of business laws, he won’t focus on any of Cambria’s funds on this podcast. All opinions expressed by podcast members are solely their very own opinions and don’t replicate the opinion of Cambria Funding Administration or its associates. For extra data, go to cambriainvestments.com.
Sponsor Message: In the present day’s episode is sponsored by AcreTrader. From the primary third of 2022, each shares and bonds are down. You’ve heard us speak concerning the significance of diversifying past simply shares and bonds alone. And in case you’re searching for an asset that may assist you diversify your portfolio and supply a possible hedge towards inflation and rising meals costs, look no additional than farmland.
Now you might be considering Meb, I don’t wish to fly to a rural space, work with a dealer I’ve by no means met earlier than, spend lots of of hundreds of {dollars} to purchase a farm, after which go determine how one can run it myself. However that’s the place AcreTrader is available in. AcreTrader is an funding platform that makes it easy to personal shares of farmland and earn passive revenue. And you can begin investing in simply minutes on-line.
I personally invested on AcreTrader, can say it was a straightforward course of. If you wish to study extra about AcreTrader try Episode 312 once I spoke with Founder Carter Malloy. And in case you’re taken with a deeper understanding on how one can turn out to be a farmland investor via their platform, please go to acretrader.com/meb. That’s acretrader.com/meb.
Meb: What’s up my mates? We obtained a spectacular present for you at present. Our visitor is Kevin Van Trump, the founding father of Farm Path and “The Van Trump Report,” which shares proprietary analysis for farm buyers and agricultural professionals.
In at present’s episode, Kevin walks us via his early profession as a dealer to now working the vastly fashionable Van Trump Report. Then we contact on the wild yr for the ag commodities and listen to Kevin’s ideas on wheat, soybean, corn. He touches on the influence of Chinese language demand and the shifts he’s seeing within the ag markets over his profession. Please take pleasure in this episode with Kevin Van Trump.
Meb: Kevin, welcome to the present.
Kevin: Hey, thanks for having me. Admire it.
Meb: I’m a longtime listener, first-time caller right here. For the newbies on the market the place do we discover you at present?
Kevin: I’m simply south of Kansas Metropolis down right here. My spouse and I grew up in a small rural city south of Kansas Metropolis. So yeah, we’re down right here simply sitting. We obtained a lake home out this manner. And so, obtained some properties in downtown Kansas Metropolis. However just about since COVID, we’ve been out right here form of obtained again to the farm and form of again to the agricultural life-style.
Meb: Yeah, man when the zombie apocalypse began right here in LA after they closed the seashores and the parks, which is probably the most insane factor in case you’re an LA resident to shut the seashores. We had been like we obtained to get out of dodge. Anyway, all proper. So for the listeners who aren’t aware of you, let’s get a bit origin story background. I do know you probably did a while buying and selling in Chicago. I’m extra aware of all the pieces you’re doing now. However for the newbies who don’t know, Kevin, inform us a bit your story.
Kevin: Effectively, I went to work for the NFL once I first obtained out of faculty. Married my highschool sweetheart and had a great job doing camps, combines, clinics, it was a enjoyable job. Wasn’t good a job, wasn’t making a lot cash, however I used to be travelling round doing a bunch of cool stuff. And that was earlier than any of that was actually fashionable, or on TV, or paid a lot. And had a pair presents one from the Vikings, one from the Dolphins.
I at all times inform folks, inform the children, the assistant to the assistant pulling guard coach most likely. And I keep in mind we glance again at among the letters we saved them. And I feel the unique supply was like for $11,000 or $12,000 yearly, you recognize. So making no cash. My spouse form of lands her dream job in Chicago engaged on Michigan Avenue. She was within the style facet of issues. So we up and go away, you recognize, rural America out right here.
Our households actually didn’t have a lot cash, each our mother and father had been blue-collar employees and simply form of did sufficient to get by. However, you recognize, we find yourself in Chicago and all my mates within the NFL stated, “Man, you bought to get within the buying and selling enterprise.” And I stated, “Hell, I don’t know something about buying and selling and I’ve labored on farms my entire life.” Sports activities man went to varsity, performed sports activities, you recognize, entire 9 yards.
And so they stated, “Effectively go speak to those folks.” They gave me a pair names to go speak to. They’re like, “Rattling, dude, you’re a giant tall man.” I used to be about 6’4″ most likely about 350 on the time and so they’re like “You’re employed, all people will see you, straightforward to get orders off. So, you recognize, lots of people will see you and it makes it very easy.”
So I begin over on the Merc. I begin off simply buying and selling FX principally Swiss francs, DeMarks, Japanese yen issues like that. Then I began buying and selling dwell cattle and various things. Moved over to the board, labored for a few completely different companies traded 5-year, 10-year notes, treasuries, after which began buying and selling corn, beans, and wheat.
Type of obtained extra into my wheelhouse the place I form of knew the lingo and will come again dwelling and speak to of us. And I met quite a lot of actually good folks within the business in Chicago, quite a lot of actually good those that form of took me underneath their wing and taught me quite a lot of issues and helped me most likely keep away from quite a lot of errors. And I obtained fortunate in just a few issues and made some respectable investments. Some issues not so fortunate, you recognize. I inform lots of people the one purpose I’m on stage is hell I most likely made extra errors than most folk. So I feel that’s necessary and to try to study from these issues and assist cross it alongside.
So, you recognize, that’s actually form of the longer the background. I nonetheless talk and speak with quite a lot of my mates from the board. Then I got here again to Kansas Metropolis Board of Commerce labored for some time and nonetheless speak to quite a lot of completely different folks contained in the business on each coasts, LA, and I’ve been to New York and into the Boston space. And so yeah.
Meb: How lengthy have you ever been writing and publishing “The Van Trump Report?”
Kevin: In all probability about, I might say it’s about 12 or 13 years, possibly a contact longer. You recognize, I actually simply began writing it I went via a rattling oh, seminar or one thing and a few folks had been form of difficult the viewers to do extra journaling, private journaling to collect my ideas and bearings a bit bit about…I suppose, for my sake, it was extra what I used to be doing investment-wise what I used to be doing trading-wise.
After which, such as you, I had two younger youngsters on the time so it was parenting and buying and selling and, you recognize, relationship. My spouse and I rejoice our thirtieth marriage ceremony anniversary arising. So there was simply quite a lot of rising. Hell, we had some ups, we had some downs. I had some companies go broke. We form of obtained caught up within the housing fallout we had been doing…I used to be backing some those that had been performing some dwelling constructing and creating.
So I simply had quite a lot of issues occurring, quite a lot of balls within the air so I form of simply began journaling placing down my very own ideas. And I began to ship it out to a few of my buddies as a result of they had been like, “What the hell are you doing? You recognize, what do you bought going?” And the following factor it began circulating again to me, and it was coming from guys over at Goldman and Morgan completely different locations, I’m like, “Shit.” I inform my spouse I stated, “Perhaps I can cost for this, and possibly I’ll cost for it, see if anyone desires to learn it.” And everybody’s like, “Ah, no one’s going to wish to examine your youngsters and your theories on life and your…” Hell it form of took off.
So, you recognize, it wasn’t meant, I by no means deliberate on writing something. I imply, it has helped me turn out to be a greater dealer and investor as a result of I’ve to assume via my ideas much more clear and much more disciplined.
Meb: You touched on quite a lot of issues I’d prefer to broaden on. However a part of it, you recognize, I feel letting the character come out, lets or not it’s much more relatable. I imply, most individuals are usually not going to wish to learn like an funding financial institution deep dive, prefer it’s much more enjoyable. And, you recognize, people relate to tales and narratives coming from somebody who’s speaking about their failures, or their enterprise, or their, you recognize, youngsters and all the opposite dumb stuff we do, is I feel a good way to go about it.
But in addition, like one of many issues I like is wanting again, you recognize, virtually as like a diary too. You recognize, we’re like, hey, what had been we speaking about 5 years in the past when XYZ occurred or 15 years in the past, I keep in mind I stated that. Man, that was actually good or silly or no matter it may need been. However you do a really in-depth and considerate letter.
Let’s discuss form of what the world appears to be like like at present. We speak so much about investing on this podcast and have been speaking so much about commodities, actual belongings, and farmland investing for years partially due to my background, and partially as a result of I feel it’s actually attention-grabbing. But in addition, many and many of the panorama doesn’t discuss it.
Now that having been stated, “Barron’s” cowl story this weekend, which can be a sign, was about farmland investing. So I feel we’ve come full circle. However speak to me a bit bit concerning the transition, you recognize, from pit dealer to fascinated by commodities and form of what’s your framework? How do you concentrate on them at present? And what’s your funding form of course of with regards to fascinated by that world?
Kevin: So principally, I primarily commerce corn, beans, wheat. I commerce quite a lot of completely different energies, simply I’m invested in ethanol, vegetation, CNG fuelling amenities. So quite a lot of these issues, feedlot. So quite a lot of the issues and the elements that go into among the companies that we’re invested in from the ag-tech world via the power house. I used to be dealer and traded fairly closely, you recognize, via the years, so I form of really feel like I’ve considerably of a possibly of an edge or have made sufficient errors that I can preserve myself from getting overly crazily tripped up.
However I begin day by day with a macro view, the macro perspective, what’s taking place globally with the world. You recognize, we’ve realized within the final 10, 15, 20 years, I imply, the markets have modified dramatically as a result of you’ve gotten much more fund curiosity and much more cross hedging. And with the cross hedging you’ve gotten much more greater gamers and larger cash gamers, you recognize, looking for methods to bypass and get a greater risk-reward ratio. So they could be lengthy gold quick crude, they could have completely different numerous buying and selling methods.
I keep in mind one yr ADM was corn and the wheat market was simply racing greater, and no one might actually determine what the hell was taking place as a result of we weren’t actually having a conventional provide and demand story. However we had been going right into a polar vortex and there have been quite a lot of headlines a couple of polar vortex hitting within the winter. So I used to be getting quite a lot of calls from just a few of my hedge fund buddies in Boston and out in your approach.
And so they’re like, “Hey, you recognize, we had been considering, if this polar vortex hits, that’s most likely actually going to disrupt first-quarter earnings as a result of it’s going to have, you recognize, half the East Coast all hunkered down. And, you recognize, how can we…” as a result of we had been simply coming off massive positive factors out there and it’s like, “How can we hedge a few of this?” They wished to get lengthy the wheat market as a result of they figured the wheat market was probably the most delicate to a polar vortex, you recognize, you get a large…you recognize, some sort of winterkill on the wheat crop, the wheat crop goes to pop and take off to the upside.
So there was quite a lot of enjoyable cash coming in shopping for the delicate crimson winter wheat contracts to try to cross hedge into an fairness portfolio. And it was simply loopy, it was baffling among the greater gamers within the house as a result of they’d not seen that previously. And we’re seeing much more of that now, whether or not it’s into pure…no matter market it could be, you’re seeing extra cross hedging, extra attention-grabbing trades, the spreads, that was once conventional unfold sort performs aren’t conventional anymore.
You may form of get in hassle if you look again in historical past and assume, wow, this shouldn’t do that, or this could do this. Simply lot extra high-frequency buying and selling, much more algorithmic buying and selling, and that’s modified among the house a bit bit.
Meb: If you happen to had been to characterize form of your strategy, is it principally basic and form of discretionary? Is it you contain technical form of, you recognize, inputs?
Kevin: I began off form of buying and selling basically then I scrapped that once I was younger and have become a technical guru. And the way DeMark was traded on the time DeMark was in place. I used to be Larry William’s dealer for a few years, and I put in trades for Larry for some time.
So, I imply, I had turn out to be very nicely versed within the technical facet and began buying and selling technically. Hell, I didn’t have nice success with that both so it grew to become extra of a mix. I might say principally basically pushed with technical evaluation definitely getting used as a device for entry exit factors, total development issues of that nature.
So yeah, principally a mix and actually principally anymore what cash circulate is doing with the funds? I imply, what’s their urge for food? And what’s…you recognize. You could be as proper because the day is lengthy however finally, you bought to be proper to market, you recognize.
Meb: Yeah. I figured we begin with wheat as that’s most likely closest to my coronary heart. We did a podcast just lately with an writer who simply put out a e-book referred to as “Oceans of Grain,” which is form of about Professor Georgia, form of how wheat has helped form civilization and financial development throughout the globe, which is fairly enjoyable.
However, you recognize, wheat, for a few years of this previous decade hasn’t been doing an entire lot. After which, you recognize, what’s it beginning form of post-pandemic time began inching up after which simply form of went bananas previously yr. Give us a bit perspective, what does it appear to be now? What was the expertise of the previous yr occurring, and your ideas?
Kevin: Yeah, I imply, we raced greater clearly, off the, you recognize, Russian invasion of Ukraine, and actually form of added gasoline to the fireplace and took us to some highs we haven’t seen in lots of, a few years. A few wheat contracts posted all-time highs. So you actually had some massive fund pursuits and a few massive fund motion.
However in the previous couple of months, you’ve had the funds form of again off their urge for food for commodities, simply in essence or, often because they assume that we’re going to have worry of a worldwide recession. So some sort of, you recognize, strolling again their urge for food for commodities has actually form of put the hammer on among the grain markets, particularly wheat. We’re struggling as a rustic to export our exports…we’ve turn out to be what we name in our enterprise, we turn out to be the ancillary provider of wheat.
Individuals wish to go to Costco and Walmart first, which on this case is Russia, the Black Sea, and components of Europe. So they give the impression of being to get low-cost wheat from these sources, and if they’ll’t get that and they should completely safe delivered, they have an inclination to then come to the U.S. as an ancillary provider. So we’ve misplaced quite a lot of market share on the planet as a wheat exporter.
And the energy of the U.S. greenback has turn out to be a headwind as of late and so exports haven’t been all that nice. We wish to imagine exports are going to enhance as we transfer ahead, there’s quite a lot of unknowns, you recognize. This humanitarian grain hall, the so-called humanitarian grain hall is popping out of Ukraine. How a lot are they really going to get exported? We imagine it’s not very a lot.
However the headline merchants and the algorithmic laptop fashions, you recognize, it’s weighing pretty closely. And quite a lot of the bulls have exited from the fund facet, they’re on the sidelines you bought a bit bit extra quick curiosity in enjoying out from the funds. And, you recognize, they’re tending to make use of it as a cross edge for international…being quick as a worldwide recession hedge.
Meb: While you form of commerce at this level in your profession to the extent you’re is it historically via direct futures? Are you buying and selling choices? Are you buying and selling underlying equities? Like how do you historically go concerning the expression of a commerce?
Kevin: So I simply commerce straight futures most likely 80, 90% of the time. I’ll commerce choices on futures, I’m lengthy some out of the cash … calls, for the time being simply they obtained crushed up fairly severely. I ought to say in the previous couple of years with Robin Hood and a few of these different platforms which have gotten extra of the youthful youngsters concerned, you recognize, there are just a few excessive swings and choices there. There may be some particular alternative with the vol and the volatility that’s on the market in case you’re paying consideration. I imply, a few of them actually get crushed, you recognize, they only get overdone to at least one facet or the opposite. So there are undoubtedly some alternatives for choices gamers.
Meb: What’s the form of the remainder of the ag house that you just’re corn, beans, is it form of a narrative of extra of the identical with wheat, are there massive variations? Inform us what you’re seeing.
Kevin: You recognize, you’ve gotten a bit bit extra of a requirement story in case you go to the beans facet of issues, you recognize, we raced employed within the final couple of weeks, after which we’ve given most of that again right here as of late. However the bean story is the world’s going to…and there’s actually no alternative for the upper protein beans. So that you develop soybeans, you ship that to a processing plant they crush that for meal and bean oil.
Notoriously meal…the years’ previous meal was at all times the chief of a bull run as a result of the oil was form of regarded as a byproduct, proper? So you employ the meal to feed the pigs, the poultry, the livestock and there’s actually no alternative for the excessive protein. Corn, when corn costs get tremendous excessive they’ll begin to, you recognize, substitute wheat in, and wheat will are available in. However so far as meal there’s actually not a giant substitute.
So the world wants the meal to feed the livestock, we’re going to proceed to see, we imagine, growing excessive protein demand from the livestock facet. However now hastily, you’re getting a giant push for oil from the cooking facet and from the biofuel facet. So you bought a giant onslaught of cash coming into the U.S. or being moved by buyers right here within the U.S. to create extra crush amenities or extra amenities to create extra biofuel, aviation gasoline, issues of that nature.
So we expect we’re going to see fairly just a few extra soybean processing amenities open up. We predict with that you just’re going to see an even bigger enhance within the variety of acres for soybeans are most likely going to be transformed extra planting of soybeans as we transfer ahead. Hopefully, you recognize, provide, that is at all times difficult in these commodity markets as a result of hell, you get a giant story about demand. Subsequent factor you recognize you planted too many acres so provide outweighs demand, you then form of try to rebalance and see the way it shakes out.
However, you recognize, we suspect over the following 5 years, you’re going to see a fairly good enhance within the variety of soybean acres. Due to the very fact we’re going to construct out fairly just a few of those new crush amenities and these new amenities to supply extra issues with beans. The bean story is sweet it’s obtained a great demand story.
Corn is a bit more difficult. Climate-wise, I feel corn, you recognize, proper right here you’re in a bit little bit of a climate market. We’re simply previous pollination interval. The corn is a bit more tough to develop. So worldwide wheat is the best to develop. So most individuals begin off and develop wheat whether or not it’s in Ukraine, Russia, the bottom facilitates wheat development. Subsequent might be you come into rice or beans and issues of that nature. After which corn is a bit bit harder to develop, a bit extra delicate, obtained a bit extra points, some issues can occur, timing of the climate is fairly necessary.
So, you recognize, we’ve obtained an incredible story climate is clearly going to influence the corn crop each right here and in South America an incredible deal. And Chinese language demand, I suppose stays the massive query mark on each and the conflict in Ukraine. You recognize, Ukraine’s a serious exporter of corn, fourth largest on the planet behind Brazil and Argentina and ourselves, and the way that performs out goes to be a giant query. In order that and Chinese language demand are form of the driving issue.
Meb: Yeah, you’re one in all my favourite follows on Twitter for the ag charts. So, listeners, you possibly can click on the present observe hyperlinks and comply with Kevin on Twitter as a result of he produces quite a lot of nice charts on the ag world. Whereas we’re right here China, you recognize, has been such a serious influence on all issues commodity associated for the previous decade. You recognize, it’s exhausting I feel for lots of buyers to disentangle form of what’s occurring versus the headlines and what’s actually form of their affect is.
The place will we stand at present? Is it one thing that, you recognize, the entire COVID expertise and the lockdowns has been impacting their form of insatiable demand for commodities, or what’s the updates there?
Kevin: Effectively, just a few years again most likely when President Trump was elected early on, we had gotten some intel or perception from a few of our sources in Washington that there have been a few completely different papers going round and various things, you recognize, that China is taking and swinging a bit otherwise and taking a unique strategy in the direction of the West. When folks had landed from the federal government that often they might be taken to sure locations in China, you’re form of taken to see what you’re imagined to see. And, you recognize, and the way issues are imagined to look in your excursions, and what you possibly can report, what you possibly can’t report.
It was the primary time ever that we’d gotten again intel that they’re attempting to pivot away from a Western eating regimen. There was a giant push a very long time, they had been turning into extra westernized. I’d most likely say 4 or 5 years in the past, we began getting intel, that that’s a giant shift from, you recognize, the best degree of the Chinese language authorities, they wish to shift away from Western-type society or Western diets, issues of that nature.
That makes us a bit involved, a bit anxious, you recognize, have we peaked to a point the demand facet of issues? Are they going to stroll again a few of this protein manufacturing that we thought was going to be necessary. We thought there was going to be an even bigger push for cattle, beef, livestock issues of that nature. I’m not so certain of that anymore. They could be strolling that again to a point, they appear to have so much greater chip on their shoulder concerning the West. Hell, as we’ve seen this week with the Pelosi touchdown in Taiwan, and among the different issues.
So Chinese language demand is worrisome. We undoubtedly imagine they’re attempting to do extra offers with South America, they wish to try to, you recognize, push their belt highway goal. Clearly, they wish to try to knock the U.S. greenback out because the world’s international main forex. I feel that Russia and China are each, you recognize, considerably in cahoots to attempt to make that play. It’s comprehensible why.
I feel that’s going to be some main rivalry transferring ahead over the following a few years is, you recognize, will they get the greenback out of that place? Will they not? I’m not likely certain. However it’s worrisome, you recognize, from our standpoint, or from our perspective. So, yeah, there’s quite a lot of transferring components inside China politically, which have modified during the last 4 to 5 years, which make issues much more attention-grabbing.
Meb: As you concentrate on the greenback, you recognize, definitely the final yr…we do quite a lot of polls on Twitter, and one in all them was, you recognize, asking buyers do you put money into actual belongings in any respect in any type? So we’re speaking commodities, we’re speaking actual property, you recognize, REITs. I stated, ignore your own home, however simply actual belongings elsewhere, even ideas I put on this class. And the overwhelming majority had little or no in commodities.
And I usually spotlight and asterisk this and say my Canadian and Australian mates are most likely the exception as a result of they are typically very pure resource-focused. However the final yr, and notably this yr, with inventory and bond markets, I really feel like has introduced that dialogue again to the forefront, you recognize, excessive inflation. And positively, for the primary 4 or so months of the yr, commodities had been simply going bananas, most of them, some weren’t. Valuable metals notoriously have lagged.
However how a lot of a job does form of the massive image financial, you recognize, form of play in your world? You recognize, take into consideration inflation, take into consideration the U.S. greenback, which what I feel was a shock to many with the greenback ripping after which commodities additionally on the identical time. Is that one thing you spend quite a lot of time fascinated by, little bit, consider, not a lot?
Kevin: Certain. You recognize, I’ve realized many, many occasions many invaluable…don’t combat the Fed, you recognize, you actually wish to try to be on the identical facet as the house crew so far as what the federal government is attempting to do, or what the powers that be on the planet are attempting to do.
So I feel you undoubtedly have to start out off…that’s what I stated. Begin off day by day attempting to get a greater understanding of the macro perspective, you recognize, what will we consider the greenback right here? What will we take into consideration charges, rates of interest, long run debt? The place are we going to go? And the place’s the cash going to circulate? I imply, you simply actually need to comply with the cash, the place’s the cash going to circulate? And the place is it attempting to maneuver to subsequent? And that’s actually the secret. So yeah, undoubtedly give it some thought religiously.
Meb: As you’ve form of talked to buyers and been sending out this e mail over time. Give us a sentiment examine on form of the responses and suggestions you’re getting this yr versus years previous or simply even over the whole lot. I imply, I feel for me, personally, you recognize, being concerned in form of the institutional investing world for some time, you form of see the ebbs and flows of sentiment, you recognize, commodities in that a part of the world obtained a ton of curiosity within the early a part of the 2000s, you recognize, put up, form of web bubble.
After which, you recognize, all these massive establishments had been transferring in and indexing and allocations of futures as an asset class. After which it form of seemingly misplaced curiosity considerably over a lot of years. After which farmland has form of, you recognize, at completely different intervals, in addition to timber and all that. What’s been the vibe out of your readership and form of folks you work together with over, you recognize, the previous variety of years?
Kevin: The vibe just about as I see total, I argue this with everybody. I suppose it relies upon what your goal is, you recognize. My goal wasn’t to do that to make any cash. My goal was simply to do that to place my very own ideas down and try to determine what the hell I used to be doing and attempt to turn out to be a greater dealer, and like I stated, a greater dad or mum, a greater father, a greater, you recognize, husband all of the 9, all these issues. So I actually wasn’t doing it to ever earn a living. I actually by no means had any advertisers, didn’t have anybody promote, didn’t take any promoting cash. So, you recognize, I’ve a unique play.
I feel the vibe is doom and gloom sells. I imply, the those that push doom and gloom make a shitload of cash and folks wish to hear it. They wish to hear conspiracy theories, they wish to hear doom and gloom, they wish to hear the world’s ending, greenback goes to go misplaced and purchase shotguns, canned items, and gold. And, you recognize, that sells, it actually does promote.
And quite a lot of my readers I’ll get responses on a regular basis like, you recognize, “My gosh, why are you so optimistic? Why are you so…?” And so they nonetheless subscribe and so they nonetheless take it, however they might reasonably hear me be doom and gloom. And, you recognize, just like the sky is falling and form of soar on board the bandwagons of the conspiracy theories. And I simply by no means have. I’ve by no means been a kind of folks.
I obtained off a name yesterday, some mates of mine, a few billionaire buyers, and so they wished me to be on a name with a man. I imply, and he was speaking the greenback that is down and that’s the greenback is gone, and all of the loopy conspiracies that you could possibly consider, you recognize. It’s entertaining I imply, they undoubtedly get your consideration. And I’m not saying that possibly at some point, they received’t be proper. However I simply don’t assume we’re going to roll over right here in the US and simply play lifeless and fall to items multi functional deadly shot right here.
So I’m not a giant believer, a fan of it. You ask me what the vibe is, I feel the vibe is notoriously folks wish to be bearish, they wish to assume the sky is falling. I feel the increasingly social media continues to push and separate all of us, you recognize, into our personal little lanes and channels. I inform everybody, I imply, we didn’t have very many threads or materials of threads that saved us all collectively to start with. I imply, there’s solely, you recognize, just a few threads that preserve us collectively as a nation.
And the algorithms, sadly, outline us by what we’re towards not what we imagine in collectively collectively, you recognize. Something you click on, the algorithms are going to outline you by your clicks, and what you want, or what you hover over what number of seconds. And, you recognize, sadly, we’re all being put into these little bins about what we’re form of towards so everybody, you recognize, has these points now. And I feel it’s going to be difficult, however that’s the entire rattling market.
Meb: Once we see you begin to get actually destructive, then we’re going to begin to run for the hills, we’ll know that it’ll be the Armageddon. You recognize, as somebody who has been a longtime observer of form of commodity and ag markets, speak to me a bit bit concerning the modifications you’ve seen. And a part of this query to me is, as a extra informal observer, is partially the position know-how is enjoying.
And so inflation isn’t just one factor it’s quite a lot of various things. Some areas are disinflationary or outright deflationary, some areas are extremely inflationary. However to me, at all times, you recognize, I’m an optimist like you’re, I’ll not come throughout that approach. However I’m an optimist and know-how to me and the relentless human progress. However notably as utilized to ag and commodity house what are you seeing? Is it an space that, you recognize, is form of incremental, or hastily it’s like leaps and bounds in your world? Is it one thing you put money into any approach? Give us an summary.
Kevin: Our household, my spouse, and our youngsters had been form of angel buyers in quite a lot of ag-tech startups. We’re form of founding group with iSelect. iSelect does quite a lot of ag-tech investing from a startup perspective and we had been founding in there and form of put cash on them. And numerous completely different ones like I stated AcreTrader now AcrePro, and Benson Hill. We now have many alternative ones that we’ve invested in via the yr.
I see a bit sooner or later in ag-tech and in among the ag-tech startups. It’s most likely I might say extra incremental. I feel you bought to start out…you recognize, we begin in our investing thesis with the demographics. And I feel you look right here at demographics if you wish to return to the boomers who had been most likely probably the most influential, what they created, you recognize, whether or not it was massive field shops or the quick meals.
Now you take a look at the millennials, they don’t need quick meals essentially they’re extra into understanding the place their meals comes from. Larger finish sort meals, your Chipotle your several types of factor. Sure, they are going to pay $8 for Starbucks espresso or $9. They don’t need to have, you recognize, a 50 cent espresso. And sure, they are going to pay $10 for a burrito at Chipotle, and they’re going to spend much less on one thing else. Their spending habits are a lot completely different. Meals is essential to the millennials. So we see this as a giant shift in agriculture.
In agriculture for years, it was once the farmer, the producer grew, regardless of the hell they wished to develop, and also you the patron picked from what they grew. Now, that’s altering dramatically. So now, the patron is just about dictating what’s going to be grown, the way it’s going to be grown, what chemical compounds they need on it, what chemical compounds they don’t need on it.
We suspect as blockchain turns into increasingly prevalent, you’re going to see blockchain come throughout the farms and also you’re going to know precisely what’s in your crop. You’re going to know what chemical compounds are put in it, the place it’s been…the explanation they need blockchain is just this. You may keep in mind again when Chipotle they’d the difficulty and so they had been getting the breakouts of E.coli.
Effectively shit, they wish to know precisely what farm it got here out of, what area, what row, and who was choosing it, they wish to know doing that. In order that’s form of the place that got here from. And so they wish to realize it instantly to allow them to get the issue stopped and solved rapidly.
Like Gaylon Lawrence is one in all our mates that does quite a lot of companies, we do some enterprise with them. Gaylon owns most likely extra row crop acreage than anybody in the US. And so they put in a brand new cotton gin. And so like Patagonia, among the different those that promote the live performance tees and issues like that, it’s form of, nicely, the children wish to know the place the cotton got here from, and what farm, and, you recognize, form of what was on…they prefer to have a narrative behind it and we’re seeing that increasingly.
In order that they already are tagging and block chaining quite a lot of their cotton that goes via the mills. We’re seeing that with rice now. Loads of the rice is form of getting blockchain. Chipotle solely desires to purchase a few our clients provide nearly all of the rice for Chipotle. They solely need sure…and comprehensible they need sure issues.
Benson Hill is one other nice instance. So Benson Hill began…they had been going to be just like the Amazon World Companies however for the seed business. They’ve a bunch of scientists that they’ve taken out of…and gotten from different corporations which can be among the finest scientists, and so they use CRISPR know-how to create their very own seeds.
Now, Not possible, Past these folks contract with Benson to create a particular seed, that’s the proper selection for his or her meals, proper energy, proper style, the correct palette texture. And so then Benson is ready to use their crew and so they use CRISPR know-how create the correct bean. Then we discover the grower…and assist them discover growers that may develop that bean particularly for that finish consumer.
It by no means was once that approach. I imply, farmer would simply develop no matter, and the top customers form of left to select what they need. Now you’re seeing the precise finish consumer, the producer, actually form of let you know what they need and the way they need it. And so they’re contracting with farmers to supply greenhouses, vertical farms within the cities, you recognize, in a few of these vertical areas. And that’s turn out to be very, very attention-grabbing. So we expect there’s going to be a giant evolutionary shift and alter.
Meb: So, you recognize, as you speak to buyers, let’s say not farmers who’ve been on this world, however individuals who say, look, I obtained a U.S. 60/40 portfolio, I’m taken with getting publicity to your world. I think about you’re getting extra of these inquiries now than possibly just a few years in the past. However what do you form of say to those folks? Is there a typical response, or recommendation, or how one can form of assume and strategy this complete ecosystem of commodities farming, investing, ag-tech, all these items? Is it simply learn my letter day by day and stand up to hurry or how do you speak to them?
Kevin: Our household we simply form of pivoted and opened up our personal…we opened Van Trump Farm & Land as a result of we have now seen increasingly curiosity such as you stated. We partnered with Carter over at AcreTrader. And so yeah, so we partnered up with Carter, I feel the press launch will come out in a month or two or one thing.
My spouse and I, we’ve been in the true property enterprise our entire lives nearly all of our grownup life, I ought to say constructing, creating, and shopping for and promoting actual property via our family funds and belief. However we determined, I wished to pivot and get extra particular into the farmland facet as a result of we’re seeing quite a lot of inquiries questions from lots of people from LA, lots of people from different components of the nation.
We form of break it down into three teams. I say persons are taken with what I name legacy land, that’s the place they wish to take their cash, put it into an funding in land, and preserve it in possibly a perpetual belief that by no means leaves the household.
I had a buddy one time he was a lawyer and this was a cool concept. He had a consumer that they’d about 500 acres, and him and his spouse would exit and plant about 40, 50 acres a yr in black walnuts. And this was the household’s inheritance and the children inherited like 500 acres of black walnut. I imply, it’s value tens of millions of {dollars}. And they might give, you recognize, every…I feel they had been two daughters and a brother. And every one in all them obtained a sure part, you recognize.
You recognize, in case you go reduce down the tree, or you possibly can harvest the walnuts every year and promote the black walnuts. You possibly can reduce down the tree and promote the walnut wooden for fairly a considerable sum of money. The rule within the belief was replant the timber and also you’re doing good factor. So we name these legacy-type performs.
And we have now mates, wealthier mates that like to purchase farms or working….or farm to convey the household again. Both the household comes again at harvest every year, they arrive again at planting. It form of simply brings the household again collectively as the children go off and so they have grandkids and children. So we’d take a look at issues as a legacy sort of play. We now have others which can be taken with working farms.
So we’ve had a number of investor mates that actually simply wish to personal working farms which can be rising to corn, beans, wheat. A number of the farms have was photo voltaic farms they’re getting massive lease cash for photo voltaic, wind, power, issues of that nature. So some are simply seeking to diversify into working farms.
After which we have now others the third class that we name is a kind of an ag enterprise. We’ve had some folks are available in and switch a farm right into a whiskey farm. And so now they’re rising corn to supply whiskey. And so they’re rising every kind of various types of corn from around the globe, they obtained these cool copper vats. It’s about an hour exterior of Chicago the one which we’re mates with. And buses present up on the market and so they’re making extra off promoting swag and merch and excursions of the farm and excursions of the whiskey operation, it’s fairly cool.
We’ve obtained others which have turned some farms into tulip farms or locations to take the children and, you recognize, mattress and breakfast sort performs or issues. However yeah, so these are form of the three issues that we’re . So these are different ways in which folks can get really bodily invested within the ag world. The others could be on the board via investment-type performs, via ETFs, via futures choices, issues of that nature.
Meb: You recognize, one of many issues that the “Barron’s” article highlighted, which we’ve talked about for a very long time, is that as a proportion of the worldwide public portfolio, so if you wish to exit and purchase all the general public belongings, shares, bonds, and many others. One of many largest lacking items has at all times been farmland. It’s actually exhausting to get publicity via public securities the best way that you’d via particular person or group farmland, precise properties, or funds as a result of it’s owned a lot by people and teams. However I feel that’s altering, you recognize, extra just lately. However, you recognize, persons are seeing it’s actually an incredible asset class that usually doesn’t correlate, you recognize, a lot to anything on the planet.
Kevin: Yeah, quite a lot of the funds that…so we advise quite a lot of funds that decision wish to purchase farm floor and the play is simply merely this the look is, you recognize, 30 years from now could be the bottom going to be value greater than it’s at present? In all probability. And alongside the traces of that 30 years, you’re going to clip some coupons, sometimes on years you’ve gotten extremely worthwhile yields, you recognize, some years you won’t clip your coupons some years, you might, you recognize. However over the course of time the longevity of it yeah, protected most likely longer-term funding.
Meb: The problem listeners on the operational facet, you recognize, don’t ignore the ache within the ass side, particularly getting in, you recognize, with no expertise. It’s not like a turn-key. There’s quite a lot of romance with regards to farming I feel and being on this idyllic get again to the land, notably through the pandemic, I feel lots of people have, and you then understand the precise day-to-day is a bit more work than most. Just a little extra bugs possibly for some, a bit extra critters, however very rewarding. I adore it as nicely.
On the institutional facet, you recognize, we see the headlines over the previous yr we see hey, Invoice Gates is massive into farmland, it appears to form of go in cycles. Is that this an space that you just assume is form of…is it growing curiosity from the massive dudes as nicely, is it form of throughout the board? And be happy to reply this as a part of this, like, how a lot of that is exterior of our borders? You recognize, I imply, it’s clearly a worldwide market, however farmland investing, you possibly can most likely purchase floor so much cheaper in Argentina, or, you recognize, different locations than in Illinois. How are the establishments fascinated by this? And are folks wanting overseas as nicely with the greenback up a lot?
Kevin: Yeah, most likely. You recognize, we personal farms in South America via companions with some teams, our mates I ought to say in farms in Brazil, and a bit bit in Argentina and various things of that nature. However huge studying curves, huge. Appeared nice on paper, seemed great in concept, and in follow, not so great. And I inform everybody, that’s the case with most likely a lot of issues I say, you recognize, whether or not it’s golf, sports activities, or investing or farming. We go into it initially, considering it’s principally science, you recognize, however there’s quite a lot of artwork concerned on the farms.
So we fashioned a gaggle of farmers that we went in and acquired some floor in Brazil, for instance. We had been about two hours out of Teresina and up by the mouth of the Amazon. There you’re getting about 70 inches of rainfall yearly the place hell, out in Kansas within the components you’re getting 12, 13 inches of annual rainfall.
So the play was we purchased the land, initially, we had been going to develop eucalyptus timber on the land. You recognize, the eucalyptus tree will develop concerning the 50, 60 ft within the air and also you do it 7 completely different occasions 7 completely different cycles.
Effectively, we begin to look extra from a farming facet due to all of the rainfall like man, that is going to be nice. We’ll begin off we’ll develop rice, we’ll develop wheat, and beans get the soil proper, clear the fields. Hell, you recognize, nice in concept, however in follow, it was simply not nice. We had supposed engineers are available in, needed to put in…it was like pioneering. Needed to put in roads, nicely, we get again there a month or two after they put the roads in, we’re like “Shit, this isn’t going to work.” And the engineer “What do you imply?” It’s like there was no peak to the roads.
Issues that we take without any consideration right here, they didn’t have the roads topped in any respect. The roads had been simply tremendous flat, and no ditches. So it’s just like the water is simply going to pool up within the highway. It’s like no, no, this can’t be potential. Issues we take like rolling up fence line or pulling up fence line from the place they’d. I imply, it might take these folks weeks and weeks the place it might take our boys right here like days to do it.
So, you recognize, I feel issues we take without any consideration, we thought two plus two is 4, and it was going to be straightforward, and there was going to be a science to it. We overlook the artwork facet of it identical to you talked about. There’s an entire lot of artwork that goes into making issues profitable. So we’ve had no luck. I’ve by no means been on the profitable facet of farms in different nations. And only a few of my mates have both whether or not it was in components of Ukraine as a result of there have been some loopy tales with the Russians over there. South America, it’s powerful, you recognize.
So, yeah, I’m hesitant to place any more cash exterior the U.S., with regards to farming and agriculture, simply because there’s a lot extra artwork concerned on this equation than many individuals wish to give it credit score. So do I see extra massive cash coming into the house? Yeah, undoubtedly. I feel massive cash, sees the writing on the wall. You see fragmentation, it’s a extremely fragmented space or pool no completely different than say Sam Walton again within the day with five-and-dimes, you recognize.
So wherever you’ve gotten fragmentation and excessive fragmentation, and high-profit margins at occasions, there may be alternative. And, you recognize, non-public fairness and institutional cash sniffs that out and actually, you most likely don’t have any higher fragmentation than you do within the ag world presently. I imply, owned by a lot of mother and pops, you recognize, quite a lot of mother and pops. You bought a giant wave of know-how approaching, quite a lot of mother and pops that aren’t actual open to altering or studying new know-how and new methods, it’d blowout.
You recognize, there’s quite a lot of roll-ups happening, there’s quite a lot of consolidation happening and larger cash is coming in to make that play. I do know rural America is form of bucking at that a bit bit. I ought to say possibly so much in some locations. However it’s form of the character of each enterprise, you recognize, each enterprise business we’ve ever seen, it form of takes the identical evolution. And on the finish, you begin to get this massive consolidation interval. So I think Gates, you recognize, I feel he’s appropriate in a few of his considering.
Meb: What have you ever realized or modified your thoughts about or, you recognize, as you speak to buyers stepping into this house form of widespread errors, you recognize. The one which I at all times discuss with regards to angel investing, or actually any form of investing is folks, I at all times say, you recognize, hey, child steps, proper? Such as you don’t need to cannonball into the pool with all of your cash on day one and put all of your chips on a single wager. However notably with regards to your world, are there some errors that you just assume are simply averted or which can be widespread for brand new entrants?
Kevin: Yeah, you recognize, I feel it’s just like like, Kevin O’Leary places it. I like his analogy once we talked at a pair completely different conferences. You recognize, you bought to ask your self, at the start, how rapidly do I would like these troops to return again dwelling? In case your {dollars} are troops I imply, how rapidly…what number of am I going to ship out on this battle? And the way rapidly are they going to return again dwelling? And are they going to return again dwelling lacking legs and arms? And, you recognize, is it going to only be a horrific story?
So, you recognize, for me, I feel that’s form of the massive magic query with regards to the farming facet or investing in farmland. You recognize, in case you’re doing it for a household, your loved ones functions and to maintain your loved ones collectively lengthy, lengthy, long run, and to maintain the farmland itself in a kind of perpetual belief, you recognize, actually you’re not that anxious about that you just’re doing it extra for different issues.
Now, in case you’re attempting to actually present constant annualized returns on a faster timescale, you recognize, that’s most likely going to be much more tough within the farm house as a result of there’s so many unknowns that may occur yr in, yr out. You’re out in California and also you go purchase an almond farm and the following factor you’re battling fires which can be throughout and throughout your farm. And also you’re going to have some points, you’re going to have various things occur. You purchase a farm in Kansas or Nebraska, the place you possibly can’t drill for water anymore, and also you get a large drought sweeps via, you’re going to have some points.
There’s only a fairly substantial and sizable studying curve to an actual working farm. If you happen to’re attempting to get in there, earn a living the following yr, two years, three years, you recognize, I feel that’s most likely a fallacy to a point.
Meb: As you look again in your profession buying and selling, there have been quite a lot of trades I think about. We at all times finish with this query. What’s been your most memorable funding good, dangerous, in between, however simply the one that stands out in your mind?
Kevin: I attempted to discard…you recognize, I actually strive to not sear them into my mind an excessive amount of. I feel I used to be studying…we had been speaking to a psychologist, a buying and selling psychologist they had been interviewing, and did a research on a bunch of the highest merchants. And so they stated, “Man, it’s bizarre that the highest merchants often prefer to play golf or poker.” And so they stated they’re considering it’s as a result of the very best golfers overlook concerning the final gap, you recognize.
If you happen to play golf and fear about that final gap, the place you simply made an eight or one thing then the remainder of the spherical begins to unwind. Similar approach sort in poker, you bought to overlook concerning the final one. You recognize, we attempt to overlook concerning the final commerce and I strive not to consider the nice ones, and take a look at not to consider the actually dangerous ones and simply study from the expertise.
However, you recognize, we had been early in Tesla for the correct causes. Wasn’t tremendous early in Bitcoin, however we had been pretty early in Bitcoin form of simply on the momentum play. And it’s been good, it was good, you recognize, the newer ones I suppose that stick definitely, have been improper. You recognize, I hate greater than something turning…if you obtained a pleasant profitable commerce and also you permit it to show again right into a loser that’s irritating as hell. I used to be on a name final evening speaking about that simply, you recognize, that’s one that actually caught. It eats away on you psychologically.
And in buying and selling, it’s all…I imply, buying and selling is only a psychological sport. I imply, if everybody was doing the very same factor, or if there was a technical system that labored, or if everybody was lined on the identical facet, it’s actually not. We at all times stated…so we’d rent prop merchants in Chicago, and, you recognize, prop merchants, simply, all people had a unique philosophy and completely different concept and among the better of the very best. We had some youngsters that didn’t even graduate highschool simply had GEDs, and so they printed cash for years. And so they had been simply tremendous good.
From a psychological standpoint, as soon as you set the place on, it’s like we are saying you possibly can choose any market put the place on, it’s the way you handle it from there. I imply, any dummy can handle a profitable hand, it’s the way you handle the loser’s that’s actually going to finally resolve your destiny as an investor.
Meb: I feel your remark concerning the shedding trades. My favourite quote the previous couple of years was through Mark Yusko. And I can’t keep in mind who the originator was, nevertheless it’s “Each commerce makes you richer or wiser, however by no means each.” And so fascinated by these shedding trades and the way they influence your studying curve, I feel is beneficial in that approach.
I just lately had an angel funding that had carried out rather well. It was a former podcast alum was the founding father of the corporate and it was like a 15x final result after they had been acquired, which is superior. However the issue was, in fact, of the final yr everybody can relate just like the buying firm was a public one and their inventory went down a bunch. So by the point the lockup expired, it was nonetheless like a 3 or four-bagger, which is wonderful, nevertheless it wasn’t a 15-bagger anymore.
So the psychological accounting, the anchoring, proper, is like, in case you instructed me forward of time, would you be proud of tripling, quadrupling, I could be like, oh, my god completely, like, wonderful final result. However relative to the place it was it’s such as you really see how a lot you misplaced. So humorous, simply the best way to consider it. However a pair extra actual fast ones earlier than we go, what’s FARMCON?
Kevin: FARMCON, is our annual occasion. So we began off about 15 years in the past, group of merchants myself, few outdated mates simply got here to Kansas Metropolis to shoot shit. Actually, was the explanation simply to get collectively and drink some beers with small buddies and we inform one another our favourite trades, favourite investments for the upcoming yr, what we’re most closely invested in.
So then some guys began saying, “Hey, can I invite this buddy? Can I invite this buddy and this buddy?” And subsequent factor we began to develop so much greater group. My spouse was placing it on for us form of, you recognize, throwing in dealing with the catering and the various things and shit about 4 years in the past, I feel it was over 1200 folks or one thing had been exhibiting up. Individuals coming from all completely different components. We had folks from, you recognize, completely different nations exhibiting up and various things like that.
So it’s an occasion. We referred to as it…then we modified the title to FARMCON, simply form of spin on Comedian Con or one thing of that nature. However principally, it’s actually simply there’s everybody there from…there’s a number of billionaires within the room to there’s some guys there who’ve been there with bib overalls earlier than that simply personal big plots of floor.
And so we form of simply speak and have brainstorming classes about, you recognize, what we see arising, the place we’re going to go along with issues. We had some crypto guys there final yr quite a lot of youthful youngsters that had been within the crypto house form of briefing us outdated males. We prefer to name it now outdated bears and younger bulls, proper?
So once we had been in our 20s and 30s oh, man, we had been all fired up and we had been bullish all the pieces. You keep in mind the dot-com. Now my older mates, all of us which can be 50 and older, we’re bearish and so we expect the entire world is coming to an finish and all these loopy investments we’re all bearish on. You recognize, nevertheless it’s simply because we don’t know, we don’t perceive quite a lot of the issues, we don’t perceive the lingo, we don’t know so much.
In order that’s at FARMCON, we use that as a gathering. We now have visitor audio system are available in we’ve had some nice audio system previously. Individuals will try to problem our ideas and views and, you recognize, assist preserve us on our toes a bit bit.
Meb: So it appears to be like prefer it’s January 4th, fifth. Extra importantly, listeners, the Broncos are enjoying the Chiefs, I imagine on New 12 months’s Day which for the previous 5 years, I might have stated is a meaningless sport for the Broncos at that time after they’ve I don’t know 8 to 10 losses. Nevertheless, I’m optimistic so in the event that they’re within the hunt, possibly we will get Broncos to FARMCON journey going. Kevin, this has been a blast. What’s the very best web site place to go to search out out what you’re writing and get folks to subscribe what you’re as much as, hear your ideas?
Kevin: It’s the vantrumpreport.com. Simply vantrumpreport.com. Join 30-day free trial. We don’t ask for any bank cards something like that. If you happen to prefer it, you need it carry on getting it and if not, you recognize hey, I perceive and I recognize the chance for the time.
Meb: Superior. Kevin, thanks a lot for becoming a member of us at present.
Kevin: I recognize it. Thanks for having me. You could have a great one.
Meb: Podcast listeners we’ll put up present notes to at present’s dialog at mebfaber.com/podcast. If you happen to love the present, in case you hate it, shoot us suggestions at themebfabershow.com. We like to learn the opinions, please overview us on iTunes and subscribe the present wherever good podcasts are discovered. Thanks for listening mates, and good investing.