Intro. [Recording date: October 27, 2025.]
Russ Roberts: Right now is October twenty seventh, 2025, and my visitor is journalist and writer Sam Quinones. He was final right here in October of 2021, speaking about his e book The Least of Us. Our subject for at present is his newest e book, The Excellent Tuba: Forging Achievement from the Bass Horn, Band, and Arduous Work.
Sam, welcome again to EconTalk.
Sam Quinones: Effectively, it is nice to be again with you, Russ. Thanks a lot. All the time a pleasure speaking with you.
Russ Roberts: This can be a very uncommon e book. I loved it an incredible deal.
Russ Roberts: I’ve to admit, I walked into the studying of it without–let’s simply say, no data. It is not fairly true, nevertheless it’s shut sufficient. No data of tubas, little or no data of band. However after all, these are the body of the e book, the e book can be about another issues. So, inform us what the e book is about, and the way did it occur? How did you get into writing a e book about tubas and bands?
Sam Quinones: Effectively, you have been very very similar to I used to be. I don’t play the tuba. I used to be by no means in marching band. I knew zero concerning the tuba after I began this. I wrote a few tales. At one level, there got here upon–I used to be on the LA Instances [Los Angeles Times]–there was this report that tubas have been being stolen from the excessive faculties, predominantly within the Mexican areas. And I knew why. It was as a result of the tuba had develop into this big instrument in Mexican LA. Very, crucial. I grew up in Southern California; it was the guitar again then. Now it is the tuba, took over.
And, the rationale for that’s diversified, nevertheless it has so much to do with Mexican immigrants wanting to point out how effectively they’ve accomplished. And they also rent bands with tubas, and large, brass, golden issues, and simply attractive stuff. And, due to this reputation of the tuba in that space, you have been getting a lot of tubas stolen. So, I wrote two tales in a month–two front-page tales on the LA Instances in a month–about tubas in Los Angeles.
And from then on, I simply started to interview tuba gamers. And I couldn’t inform you why, Russ. I used to be in the midst of these books proper right here, the Dreamland e book, which is concerning the opioid epidemic. I used to be simply getting happening that. And I simply saved on interviewing tuba gamers. However, largely, I feel it was as a result of I discovered–and these weren’t simply Mexican tuba gamers, this was all sorts–they have been individuals who did it as a result of they really beloved it. They really beloved it. There was no promise of wealth or fame. You possibly can not identify a tuba participant. I could not on the time. And, I simply saved on interviewing them with none level actually. It was simply random stuff, however with the religion that I had discovered from my journalism profession that for those who persist with people who find themselves doing one thing productive and optimistic with their lives, they are going to generate nice tales.
And so, I saved on doing it as I wrote Dreamland concerning the opioid epidemic and Oxycontin, and all that. After which, The Least of Us, which is concerning the Mexican trafficking world and switching to fentanyl and methamphetamine. And these have been all very grim issues. After which, after these books have been accomplished, my agent–I stated, ‘I am unable to write any extra about this terribly grim subject. It is actually about individuals searching for happiness from one thing they purchase.’ And, she stated, ‘You need to see what e book you may have the ability to write about that tuba venture that you just had instructed me a lot about.’ So, that is what obtained me into it–without, once more, realizing a factor about actually the horn, or definitely not the best way to play it.
Russ Roberts: Do you play any sort of instrument?
Sam Quinones: I play the guitar. I grew up within the Seventies in Southern California, man. Half my pals performed the guitar, everyone performed the guitar. These days are over. We used to have 5 or 6 guitar outlets inside a three-, four-mile radius of my home. These days are gone, for certain.
So, no, I do not. I like music. I’ve listened to all types of music all my life. So, I simply obtained into this. However, then, see, what actually obtained me going was I started to find–I needed to discover a path away from writing about dependancy. And what actually began me down that path have been these lovely, lovely tales. As a journalist, I used to be very drawn to superb tales of liberation. Actually, the tuba in its essence is about liberation. It begins , first, I feel, with the nice Invoice Bell. Invoice Bell was the best tuba participant of his time, labored for the New York Philharmonic. And, his significance is that he recorded the primary solo tuba report ever.
Russ Roberts: There aren’t that many.
Sam Quinones: So, in 1957–what’s that?
Russ Roberts: There aren’t that many. Nonetheless.
Sam Quinones: There have been none at the moment. There are various extra now, however there have been none at the moment.
However, what most struck me was that each one the tuba gamers, the younger children on the time within the mid-Sixties as this report started to percolate out, they have been on their lonesome with their tuba and administrators who did not perceive their instrument and what they may do with it. And, they listened to Invoice Bell present them a brand-new world that liberated their horn in their very own minds. I talked to many guys for whom this was the case. It’s extremely very similar to when jazz gamers heard Charlie Parker for the primary time, or rock guitar gamers heard Jimi Hendrix. All these tuba gamers listening to Invoice Bell hastily lifted the blinders.
After which, a couple of years after that, there was the occasion that I name ‘Tuba Woodstock.’ Which was the primary conclave of the tuba nation, primarily, at Indiana College in 1973, the place a whole bunch of tuba gamers have been convened, an unlimited symposium on the college. And, for nearly each one among them, it was the very first time they’d seen greater than, like, 4 or 5 tuba gamers in a single place. They realized they have been a part of some massive, lovely nation. This created this sort of tuba consciousness and commenced what was additionally then the Tuba Civil Rights motion. Which is to say, ‘We’re value extra than simply being in the back of the band taking part in oompah and quarter-notes and complete notes.’
Russ Roberts: I would just add that Indiana College has a storied music division, so it wasn’t a bizarre little nook of rural America. It was an indication of recognition.
Russ Roberts: Let’s again up a minute. I found from studying your e book two vital details. The tuba was invented in 1835, which is late on the planet of human beings–
Russ Roberts: The trumpet is 1000’s of years outdated, in some vogue. The French horn is a whole bunch and a whole bunch of years outdated. I feel I learn it got here from the late sixteenth century. So, the tuba comes alongside, which performs deeper notes–more bends, extra tubing. And it is invented in 1835, and there are three varieties. Inform us concerning the three varieties.
Sam Quinones: Effectively, I suppose what I like about this story is that there are–the fact is, tubas are available in as many varieties as there are nearly as human beings. By that I imply, in several keys. There’s C, there’s Double B-Flat, there’s E-Flat, there’s F. A few of them are huge and really broad. A few of them are very small. There’s the euphonium, which is the tenor tuba. There was ultimately the sousaphone, which John Phillips Sousa invents, which is the marching band that wraps round you. After which, there’s after all the live performance tuba, which works with the bell going up, dealing with skyward.
However, what I beloved about it was the tuba will not be accomplished being tinkered with. I nonetheless love the concept that they’re nonetheless making an attempt to determine the best way to make it higher. And, now with worldwide competitors, significantly currently the Chinese language, there’s been every kind of latest, higher approaches, totally different approaches to the tuba.
However, simply usually talking, it went from very low-quality–like within the Twenties and so forth, and Nineteen Thirties–horns, to what are actually fairly majestic and capable of channel the virtuosity of gamers far more simply. That is what I’ve discovered to be fascinating about the entire thing.
Russ Roberts: So, I’ve to admit, for those who’d ask me what’s a tuba, I might have stated a sousaphone–the marching band model, which is an enormous, big circle you put on round your shoulder–
Russ Roberts: The tubing is about in entrance of you. I feel, tragically or not, orchestral tubas, if you consider the Chicago Symphony Orchestra–and you write about one among their legendary tuba gamers, Arnold Jacobs–a lot of us do not see that bodily as a result of they are typically within the again. And, for those who’d stated, ‘Effectively, what is that?’ Effectively, from a distance, it appears like a French horn, nevertheless it’s not spherical: it is slightly extra rectangular. Oh.
Russ Roberts: That is an orchestral tuba, evidently. However, a number of us consider the tuba because the sousaphone, as you write about fairly a bit, its function in marching bands, which is big. It also–and you write–at the identical time about virtuosity exterior of the marching band construction in every kind of various settings.
Russ Roberts: However, I wish to come again to your level about how this e book was a counterpoint to your opioid pursuits, and writing about that.
Russ Roberts: And, I wish to learn a quote.
Russ Roberts: After which I wish to problem it a bit. You say, quote:
I had launched into all this wanting to jot down about one thing very totally different from the subject that consumed my earlier dozen years. By the top, although, I noticed the tuba was truly not as removed from the difficulty of drug dependancy as I had imagined. Or, higher put, the tuba is so distant it is the mirror reverse of dependancy.
Drug dependancy is an obedience to a substance, forsaking all else within the lonesome pursuit of fast gratification from one thing you purchase. It’s the remaining expression of our shopper tradition’s empty promise: that we will discover happiness from a product that’s on the market. An opioid overdose shuts down the respiratory system, stifling breath, and life itself.
The tuba requires nurturing that valuable breath. It’s about discovering function from the marvel of sound you’ve got discovered to create your self, and from which you forge a way of success, however which can’t be bought apart from by arduous work, preparation and persistence, collaborating with others–and the love of all of it.
Name it the tuba way of living.
Nobody ever obtained wealthy or well-known taking part in the tuba. No web adulation, no stadium exhibits, no posse. Solely an unnoticed, middle-class lifetime of nurturing your skills. However that is why it is a sane factor. It is paring life to what we want, not what we’re instructed to need and insistently demand.
Finish of quote.
I wish to barely disagree with that because–
Russ Roberts: As a result of after I learn the book–and the e book has portraits of many severe gamers, and plenty of highschool college students. In a minute, we’ll shift gears; we’ll speak about band as a result of it is an enormous a part of the e book, and it is extraordinarily fascinating. However, a number of the individuals who play tuba, or who train tuba, are slightly bit, I am going to name them quirky. They’re slightly bit off the overwhelmed observe. And, at one level you ask, ‘Are they drawn to tuba as a result of they’re quirky, or does tuba taking part in make them quirky?’ Which is an unanswerable query.
However, what I wish to suggest–this is my slight disagreement–they strike the reader as obsessive, most of them. They’re pushed, no less than those you’ve got chosen to painting. They do not take the tuba the way in which I play the guitar, and perhaps you. Which is: That is enjoyable. I can get slightly higher at it, and it fulfills a few of my fantasies about music. And, each every now and then, I make one thing that is considerably lovely. I used to have the ability to finger choose, and that was actually very gratifying. However, I wasn’t a severe musician. These of us aren’t simply severe musicians: They spend lengthy intervals of time usually making a single notice, and it is a advantage. And so they spend many days on tone, and extremely intense issues. And, these are not professionals, those I am speaking about. They’d strike me as slightly bit obsessive.
The place I agree with you–and I wish to see for those who agree with this assessment–their obsessiveness is what saves them. Within the case of dependancy to opioids, it destroys them. Dependancy to tuba saves them. And it’s totally different clearly in lots of, some ways, however there’s an obsessive high quality, an dependancy that I really feel they each have. Is that honest?
Sam Quinones: I agree, that is true. I might say that there is a huge distinction, although, and that’s that–well, initially, take into consideration how individuals come to the tuba. It is nearly at all times in band. You can not actually play the tuba earlier than you are 12 or 13-years-old. You do not have the lung power–
Russ Roberts: Cannot maintain it. It is bodily massive, too–
Sam Quinones: Precisely. And, it is often individuals who do not wish to play the tuba: a few of them have by no means even heard of the tuba earlier than they take it up. They’re late for band class first day of seventh grade, after which all the opposite devices are taken. I imply, actually, that is a quite common story. And, often these are children perhaps on the decrease finish of the social pecking order in highschool. Keep in mind, we’re speaking about highschool band right here.
However, by way of time–many individuals drop it clearly, as many individuals drop every kind of instruments–but, those who keep it up, what I’ve present in widespread they share is this sense, like, by way of the tuba, they started to know one thing about themselves. It was nearly prefer it confirmed them their very own capabilities, when throughout them have been their friends telling them they have been in all probability value nothing.
Russ Roberts: Yeah.
Sam Quinones: And, if you discover that, that is–if you discover one thing that claims you’re value one thing and you’re succesful, that’s in my view–people would come as much as me and go, ask me earlier to the tuba, ‘How do I maintain my children away from medicine?’ Actually, it is discovering that feeling that you’re value one thing by way of one other endeavor that does not should do with medicine. It may very well be something. On this case, for thus many individuals it was the tuba.
So, it does breed this sense like, ‘Unexpectedly, I am value one thing.’ And, that may be a highly effective, highly effective, I might say narcotic, however that is not really–let’s discover a totally different phrase.
Russ Roberts: Yeah.
Sam Quinones: It is this sense of ‘I can do one thing.’ After which, if you wish to do one thing, if you see you are able to do one thing, you wish to do it extra, and it breeds that. And plus, then you definately’re round individuals; and, within the band world, the tuba player–you can not have a superb band with no good tuba part, tuba participant, or tuba part. It simply would not occur. And so, you actually come to imagine in your self and see your self as succesful, after which that is extraordinary. Once more, I stated the tuba is about liberation. It is about liberating your self to see all that you’re able to.
Medication are very totally different. Medication are enslaving. They slender your world–or dependancy in general–narrows your world into that is all you are able to do, all you discover fascinating. So, I might say that is actually the large distinction right here.
Now, a number of children do not go on to proceed to play tuba, however what they be taught taking part in the tuba they carry with them. Attitudes, habits, and so on. that assist them all through their lives.
Russ Roberts: And, self-respect, which is basically what you are speaking about I feel on the coronary heart of this.
Russ Roberts: There’s one other phrase that I wish to introduce that–I do not suppose you speak about it explicitly much–but, studying your e book I discovered myself going to YouTube and infrequently to Spotify to attempt to take heed to tuba taking part in of assorted varieties. I encourage you to create a playlist of your favourite music that comes up within the e book, or the gamers. And, apart from the Flight of the Bumblebee, which is a well-known, roughly minute-long solo many individuals could have heard, sometimes performed by trumpet or violin, written by Rimsky-Korsakov, you could find a tuba participant taking part in it at excessive pace. And it is sort of a shtick. I would not name it inspiring, nevertheless it’s fascinating. It is charming in a sure manner.
However, the purpose I wish to make is that tuba gamers do not get to solo, usually. They could have a notice or two; they could be audible within the background because the equal in a bass in a jazz band. However, they’re actually a part of an ensemble. And, you matter as a tuba player– and also you write about this so much, and also you attempt to discover the phrases. After all, it is an ineffable feeling. That an incredible tuba participant taking part in an incredible tuba, a bodily majestic sounding tuba, would not simply produce an incredible tone the way in which, say, a Wynton Marsalis sounds on the trumpet. I like Wynton Marsalis taking part in alone on the trumpet. He is additionally nice in a band. However, a tuba participant is doing this unusual factor, uniting everyone else.
And I feel that is a part of what the meaningfulness of it that you just’re getting at. It is not simply you’ve got mastered something–which is a big difficulty for all human beings, is to grasp one thing–and to do at a younger age is basically an unimaginable reward. However, to do it, grasp one thing that permits different individuals to affix in, is a really particular factor, it appears.
Sam Quinones: Effectively, I agree with–that’s one of many issues that first linked me up, surprisingly, to those different two books I would written about drug dependancy as a result of drug dependancy is basically based mostly on the shredding of group. It is all about your individual isolation. You end up solely caring about different individuals to the extent that they may also help you discover your medicine. And, right here, I discovered the tuba was the group enhancer. Proper? Everyone feels a lot like they’re doing higher when you will have a superb tuba participant and a superb horn to play with it. So, to me, that is completely what goes on.
And quite the opposite: Ceaselessly tuba gamers start to imagine that, ‘Effectively, I truly lead the band as a result of all we have to do to show that’s if I play slightly bit out of tune, the entire band falls aside.’ However, that is an entire different story, I suppose.
Russ Roberts: It’s extremely a lot, as I said–a bass in a jazz band–a bass is one thing typically that until you are paying consideration you do not essentially hear. There are items clearly in some bands which have extraordinary basslines or bass gamers. However, typically, the bass is doing one thing, once more, ineffable, arduous to place into phrases. And, once more, this factor you write about very poetically of how a tuba can do that, if it is a high-enough high quality, each bodily instrument and participant, is basically very cool.
Russ Roberts: Let’s speak about band in a small city. Which, a number of the e book is writing about these extraordinary cities in Texas–tiny cities, 10,000 individuals or so–who are competing towards Dallas, and Houston, and others in band competitions–
Russ Roberts: And in these tiny cities, a savior involves city, like The Music Man. Who occurred to have been a fraud, however is redeemed by the top of the musical. A savior involves city and takes a bunch of people that, on the floor, seem like with none talent–they’re simply eager–and transforms them. So, speak about that–
Russ Roberts: That is actually a unprecedented human factor, which is a part of I feel the inspiration and allure of your e book, is that phenomenon is simply an unimaginable factor.
Sam Quinones: Oh, I agree, and I am so joyful you introduced up these tales as a result of I used to be solely going to jot down about tuba gamers. After which, I started to understand that band administrators are like tuba gamers, however on an enormous scale. That is what one among them stated. ‘We’re not doing this for wealth or fame, we do it, put in unbelievable hours.’ I’ve by no means seen individuals work so many hours as these band administrators in these small cities. And, why? As a result of what motivates them is that they see the lights go on within the eyes of their children, often as a result of that is what occurred to them after they have been in tenth grade, or a freshman in school, or at any time when. It was them.
And, the story I feel largely you are referring to, though there have been two nice tales of this type, was the story of Al Cortinas. Al Cortinas was himself saved by having the ability to attend a small school the place he majored in musical schooling, grew to become a band director within the Rio Grande Valley, the realm you are speaking about. It is the Rio Grande Valley, alongside the border with Texas, alongside the Rio Grande, all the way in which to the Gulf of Mexico, the final 100 miles or so was the Rio Grande Valley. Nearly fully Hispanic–98% Hispanic or one thing. There’s many simply from Mexico; lots of them are Mexican American.
However, what the youngsters as a rule share is that they will barely afford their devices. They on no account can afford musical classes. So, Al Cortinas, instructing within the Rio Grande Valley for plenty of years, develops some concepts about the best way to change that. And, he realizes it is important as a result of on the time he is doing this, the drug cartels are actually rising huge, and they’re attracting a number of these younger children. A number of simple cash, fancy vehicles, and all the remaining.
And, on the identical time, Texas band competitors is changing into like soccer. So, you compete, and a band wins, and somebody is available in second, third, fourth place. And, he realized that if he did not enhance the standard of his bands, his bands would by no means have the ability to compete throughout the state, and likewise a number of his children could be misplaced then to those drug cartels.
He will get the chance to place his concepts into apply when he is employed on the Roma Excessive College in Roma, Texas. Which is a city, as you say, 11,000, nearly fully Hispanic. And, the concepts that he has is in an effort to nurture the youngsters who he sees have superb expertise which might be being gone to waste, simply as his was about to years in the past when he was a kid–he says, ‘What we have to do,’–he convinces the board and the superintendent that what they should do is rent 10 band administrators. One for every instrument, and every band director will take children who play, say, the clarinet for instance, and train clarinet right through children to twelfth grade. So, children will transfer to 6, seventh, eighth with the identical trainer. Similar with the French horn, identical with percussion, identical with tuba.
On this manner, he believes–years of band directing satisfied him of this–that you’ll not lose these children alongside the way in which. This was what was taking place. By eighth, ninth grade, they’d start to fade away. This can nonetheless occur. However, when the Cortinas’ system got here to Roma, Texas, Roma had barely had a band. It was actually only a social scene the place children met and monkeyed round.
And, hastily, over the subsequent a number of years as these sixth graders grew to become seventh, eighth, ninth, and the entire college obtained higher, hastily you start to see Roma, Texas competing with, sure, the suburban bands from Dallas, from Austin, from Houston. The primary time they ever went to finals, the state finals the place they’re competing, there’s like 250 bands of their class and it is all the way down to 12 finalists. Lots of them are from very rich suburbs of Austin or Dallas.
Russ Roberts: With every kind of personal music classes consequently. And these guys are getting this in bulk.
Sam Quinones: That is what one man instructed me. ‘We’re competing with the youngsters who’re taught by the symphonies of Texas, and we’re not going to cease till we burst our manner by way of there.’ And, Roma, Texas, to this date has by no means are available in first. Nonetheless, it has shown–I do not suppose it issues either–it exhibits the fantastic thing about band. I used to be interviewing a lot of these band children, the primary time they ever went to finals was 2003 and 2004, that complete season. And, now, so it is 20 years later, I am interviewing them, and so they’re all doing splendidly effectively. All of them have these affluent, joyful households, good jobs. Lots of them will not be in music, a few of them are band administrators once more. Al Cortinas, Al Cortinas has 81 college students who are actually band administrators someplace within the Rio Grande Valley. It is a exceptional concept.
However, most of his children did not go on to that. They go on to strong center class lives as a result of band teaches the values that maintain group. That is the uncooked, the attractive, pure useful resource that’s marching band in America. It is not like another public schooling, public music schooling system on the planet, in response to individuals I’ve talked to about this.
Russ Roberts: Yeah, it is an unimaginable factor. Really, I teared up studying about, I do not bear in mind if it was Roma or the neighboring town–
Russ Roberts: Lopez–that comes again into city and is greeted by an entourage of police vehicles. The distinction between their easy life, which is unadorned by wealth and luxurious, and strolling into the San Antonio indoor stadium that in all probability seats, I do not know, 60,000. And, it is largely empty for this competitors. It should have been extraordinarily–but it is intimidating both manner.
Russ Roberts: However the level I wish to emphasize right here, which I feel is kind of extraordinary, is that these will not be children who auditioned for band and obtained chosen as a result of they have been gifted. They simply signed up. Inform me if I am unsuitable: it is only a cross-section of the individuals who have been interested by studying the best way to play one thing. It is not like they stated, ‘Oh, I have been nice on the violin, now I am going to be part of marching band.’ They’d by no means accomplished something musical of their life apart from take pleasure in music. Is that appropriate?
Sam Quinones: That’s appropriate.
Russ Roberts: That is what’s gorgeous about this.
Sam Quinones: That’s completely appropriate. And, it is also slightly bit their mother and father saying, ‘You do that as a result of there’s nothing else.’ Or, ‘You do that, you are sort of chubby, you do not run quick. You are not quick sufficient for the soccer group or the basketball group,’ and all that. And, what’s superb is that this took maintain after that, within the Rio Grande Valley. And so, bands all across–there are many, many, many small cities. I am unable to even depend all of them. There are various. And, each has their very own college district, and so forth. Each one has a band now.
And, exceptional factor: There’s this factor known as Tuba Christmas, that each December that individuals come collectively and play. Tuba Christmas within the Rio Grande Valley could be very totally different than Tuba Christmas wherever else in america as a result of it is nearly fully children 18 and beneath who’re nonetheless in highschool. Throughout the nation, individuals play the tuba, give it up, however nonetheless maintain their tubas and so they carry it out to play Tuba Christmas. However, within the Rio Grande Valley, individuals should not have cash to carry onto a really costly tuba for the remainder of their life, for the luxurious of taking part in it every year, and so forth. So, all of the individuals who play Tuba Christmas are 18 and beneath. And, there are a whole bunch of tuba gamers.
Now, I went post-COVID [coronavirus disease] 2023–in 2023–the fiftieth anniversary of Tuba Christmas, and there was 350 tuba gamers. All pushed to the McAllen, Texas Performing Arts Heart by their band administrators, by the way–by their tuba instructors, and so forth. However, earlier than COVID, earlier than COVID, they’d 650 tuba gamers.
And what which means is that individuals see and so they perceive the specter of not being in one thing that may take up a lot of your time and channel your energies. As a result of the drug cartels are proper there. There isn’t any mistaking who these persons are and what they’re about. And so, persons are, like, ‘My children are going to be in band.’ And so they let these teachers–it’s none of this coddling. One father or mother stated, ‘Dad and mom come to say do you thoughts your children being on the market working within the rain and marching and I stated no, as a result of that is how they get to the place they are. If there was lightning, I would say okay. However the whole lot else, I am effective with it.’
Russ Roberts: Yeah. It is a unprecedented American story–
Russ Roberts: I wish to come again to this query of common means. However, I first wish to make a facet notice, which you do not write about within the e book and there are lots of causes you selected to not. However, a lot of the gamers and a lot of the lecturers are males.
Russ Roberts: And, a lot of the victims of opioid addiction–correct me if I am wrong–are males.
Russ Roberts: And, there’s a problem in America–a lot of individuals have began to consider it and write about it–that the boys and younger males of America are having a tricky time.
Russ Roberts: I do not wish to speculate, quote, “whose fault” that is–whether it is anyone’s fault. Let’s put that to the facet. However, what struck me about that is that for thus many of those, both bodily struggling as a result of they’re obese or they’re bullied as a result of they’re different–for so many of those younger males, it is a lifeline. It is not simply, ‘Ah, it is one thing enjoyable to do, and it provides your life function, and it builds self-discipline and character.’ It is a lifeline.
Sam Quinones: Oh, I couldn’t agree extra. And, it is also the antithesis, the reply to all that we now have allowed to develop in our nation, in my view, by way of social media apps, and pornography, and playing, and video video games, and porn, and you may go on. Junk meals, and hyper-potent marijuana, and on, and on, and on, and on. All of this is–this is what one man was telling me. One band director stated, ‘You recognize all that stuff that you just wrote about in The Least of Us and Dreamland? The solutions to it are proper right here.’ And, it is when he instructed me that, I started to think about this e book in an even bigger manner. It is about providing–
How do I give it some thought? The extraordinary significance of insisting on arduous work–that’s why it is within the subtitle. Of perseverance. Of quiet focus. As you say, coaching children early on with only one notice. This results in very well-adjusted–frequently well-adjusted anyway–kids who do effectively in class, who love what they do, and who go on as a result of they have been educated in sure values that, once more, maintain group and maintain strong–I might say robust companies. They maintain robust private lives, church buildings, and all the remaining. You get from band this huge impression that’s countering all of the issues that I feel afflict many individuals, however definitely younger males, as you rightly say, I feel. You get away from the simple, the sit back, the fast gratification, which is what medicine are all about, however so is a smartphone with TikTok. And so is all the opposite stuff.
And, once more, there was this story, I do not know if it is true or not; it may very well be apocryphal. However, band administrators ask, ‘How did your band do that yr?’ You recognize, on the finish of the yr. ‘How did your band do that yr?’ And, the band director goes, ‘You recognize, too quickly to inform. Ask me in 10 years.’ As a result of band is about successful later–
Russ Roberts: That is beautiful–
Sam Quinones: It is actually the concept that one can are available in first and second, that is effective, nevertheless it’s actually not about that.
Russ Roberts: So, there’s this nice, nice quote. I overlook who stated it within the e book. It is not vital, as a result of its depth transcends whoever stated it, and the wording will not be significantly intelligent or witty. However it’s–someone is requested, ‘How did you get this ragtag group of youngsters who did not have any expertise to get to the finals?’ And, he says, quote, “There are not any secrets and techniques. You simply work arduous.”
And, I wish to dig deeper into that, as a result of there are faculties which have chosen different things–sports is one instance. There are faculties which have had unimaginable success with their chess group. The youngsters will not be, quote, “tremendous excessive IQ [intelligence quotient].” They is likely to be brighter than common, however they are not, like, geniuses. So, I wish to give attention to this loopy concept that it is possible–merely by way of arduous work, merely by way of devotion–to obtain greatness.
And I wish to emphasize–again, you may appropriate me if I am wrong–but when these small excessive faculties are available in second, or win, or simply come into the finals, it isn’t like individuals really feel sorry for them and so they say, ‘Oh, effectively, they’re poor, and so they come from a tiny college, so let’s minimize them some slack. Their taking part in will not be excellent.’ No: their taking part in is good, it simply takes a very long time.
And I wish to take a look at a current quote from Andrej Karpathy. I do not know the best way to pronounce his final identify appropriately. He is an AI–artificial intelligence–person. Extraordinary thinker. He says in a current publish on Twitter, on X, ‘Company is extra vital than intelligence.’ [‘Agency > Intelligence’] He says, quote,
I had this intuitively unsuitable for many years, I feel resulting from a pervasive cultural veneration of intelligence, varied leisure/media, obsession with IQ and so on. Company is considerably extra highly effective and considerably extra scarce. Are you hiring for company? Are we educating for company? Are you appearing as for those who had 10X company?
After which, he quotes–it seems so far as I can inform from the post–he quotes Grok [an AI/GPT/large language model provided by X]. He asks Grok, ‘What’s company?’ And Grok’s reply is sort of extraordinary. Quote,
[Grok, as quoted by Karpathy]: Company, as a persona trait, refers to a person’s capability to take initiative, make selections, and exert management over their actions and setting. It is about being proactive, quite than reactive–someone with excessive company would not simply let life occur to them; they form it. Consider it as a mix of self-efficacy, willpower, and a way of possession over one’s path.
And, I learn this as I used to be ending your e book, and I believed: that is precisely the reward that these band administrators give these unexceptional–on the floor, as a result of by way of the equal right here of intelligence could be, say, musical means. Excellent pitch, dexterity with their fingers, means to make tones, nice lungs to maintain a notice. These children do not have that. As an alternative, they should make up for it with company. And that is a present that lasts a lifetime.
Sam Quinones: And, I feel sure. Thanks for one more considerate query. To me, that is a necessary a part of this book–I hope and I feel. And in addition, a necessary a part of why band is so vital.
Expertise is overrated.
Russ Roberts: Yeah.
Sam Quinones: Some persons are enormously gifted proper from the get-go and that is fantastic, and you need to nurture them. However, expertise is overrated. Arduous work, which is simply one other manner of claiming company in response to your fellow there–
Russ Roberts: Yeah–
Sam Quinones: To me, that’s the place you come to–but you must construct that, you must nurture that. You must train children, significantly these days, the way you find–the advantages that they are going to discover by arduous work, by channeling that, growing company.
And I feel there are lots of methods of doing this. I selected tuba taking part in and band. I am certain you could possibly write one other e book about chess in excessive faculties, unquestionably. However to me, I beloved the concept about band and tuba taking part in as a result of no person pays any attention–
Russ Roberts: Precisely–
Sam Quinones: They get no props. They are not well-known.
Russ Roberts: Yeah.
Sam Quinones: And yet–and all of us hear all these, I might say, platitudes nearly now, concerning the significance of sports activities and instructing life classes. And, I performed sports activities in highschool and I purchase a few of that. I do not suppose it is unsuitable. Nonetheless, doing this e book I started to understand, you understand, the individuals, the youngsters who have been studying probably the most valuable classes, the youngsters who have been placing this into apply, after which happening in life to place these concepts and these values into apply, or the youngsters up within the bleachers taking part in for the athletes down on the sector: that is the place you discover. And, any Board of Schooling, any superintendent, now I imagine could be committing nearly schooling malpractice to be reducing the funds continuously for these endeavors. You might be getting such huge bang for the buck by way of simply human impression. And, getting past the concept that in an effort to be good, to be valued, you should be gifted from the get-go.
Russ Roberts: Yeah, and I’ve made enjoyable of Malcolm Gladwell’s 10,000-hour thesis. We’re not going to debate whether or not he actually stated it or what he meant by it as a result of there’s been a number of, to me, uninteresting back-and-forth about that.
However, the fascinating declare is that onerous work can carry mastery. And I’ve at all times believed that that is not true in sure areas. I do not care how arduous I work at basketball: I am 5’6″, I am not going to be an incredible basketball participant. It’s going to take much more than 10,000 hours.
However, in at present’s EconTalk episode–that you have not heard but, and our listeners can have heard by the point this comes out–I’ve an interview with David Bessis, who argues that arithmetic, anyone can actually get good at it. And I’ve at all times hated these sort of what I’ve at all times considered rose-colored glasses. ‘Oh, yeah, we’re all equal, there isn’t any exceptionality, ability will not be that vital.’ However, I feel that is foolish. However, what’s not foolish is that ample devotion makes up for lots. Within the case of math, he is even arguing something–it would not take 1000’s and 1000’s of hours: it simply takes a special mind-set about what math actually is.
However, on this case, for those who had instructed me that individuals who have hassle detecting that they are taking part in poorly, which a few of your profitable superstars have hassle with, I might have stated, ‘Nah, that is in a film.’
So, I feel, it is a heartwarming lesson in so some ways. However it’s additionally clear it is much more than 10,000 hours in all probability for lots of those children. They dedicate an unlimited a part of their waking hours to succeeding.
Sam Quinones: And that is, once more, the fantastic thing about band as a result of it is vitally inclusive. That time period is overused at present, I feel, however in band it is completely true. All you want actually is the will to play higher, and to march higher, and to work with others, and work arduous with others. And in addition, you do not face–most of the time, you do not face any life-mangling accidents because of it.
And so, what’s lovely, although, is, I discover, is to seek out individuals who have been in band as soon as and they’ll inform you–all you do is scratch them slightly bit–‘Oh, you have been in band? What did you play? How did you prefer it?’
I used to be speaking with a choose, a Federal choose, West Virginia. ‘Oh, man, I performed trombone in band.’ ‘How’d you prefer it?’ ‘It modified my life.’ I imply, you hear this. It is not unusual to listen to these items. He did not wish to be a trombone player–or perhaps he did, however he did not develop into one.
One of many lovely pictures I like concerning the tuba is the tuba is slightly bit like a people saint. So, it’s possible you’ll know: I lived in Mexico for a few years, and I’ve written so much about Mexican immigration, and my first two books have been about Mexico. So, the concept of folks saints: of your individual saint to sort of watch over you as you undergo life. Many tuba players–for many tuba gamers, the tuba is a people saint in that it teaches all of them these actually, actually vital classes in life. Once more, arduous work, consideration to element, focus, perseverance by way of failure, all of these items. It simply often can not provide the skilled financial sustenance for an actual joyful life, so individuals depart it behind.
However, many instances I hear this, it is like, ‘What I discovered from the tuba stays with me.’ It is, like, ‘The tuba is watching over me, regardless that I am not taking part in it, and I at all times dreamed that I may.’ That is why so many individuals have tubas of their basement and play Tuba Christmas, it is as a result of they thought sooner or later they needed to, after which it by no means occurred, however the tuba continues to be there watching over them.
Russ Roberts: However it’s like sports activities in that manner. Sports activities–high college sports–has a really highly effective impression on individuals who do it at a fair modestly excessive stage. As you level out, there aren’t a number of tuba jobs. There is a restricted variety of symphony orchestras. For a very long time, Disney World employed a number of tubas and band members, however they in the reduction of. And that is a really fascinating a part of the e book, the function that Orlando performs in tuba tradition.
Sam Quinones: Encouraging stuff, eh?
Russ Roberts: Yeah, I encourage listeners to learn the e book. However, there aren’t a number of skilled sports activities jobs both. And, younger males and girls dream of athletic success, and inevitably most of them are going to should be disillusioned.
Russ Roberts: So, they should have a wistfulness, realizing that that dream, which they did have for some time maybe, will not be going to come back true, and cherish what they get out of it.
However, as you level out–which, I like this line–‘Not like soccer, band is basically about successful later.’ And that is your quote about, ‘I am going to see how my band seems in 10 years.’ However after all, that is additionally true of nice soccer coaches. They perceive that the majority of their prices won’t have a profession within the NFL [National Football League], will not get a Division One scholarship even, and no matter they do for them that is good comes from these instances in highschool.
Sam Quinones: However, it is also–you know, I feel often these are the fortunate ones.
Russ Roberts: Yeah.
Sam Quinones: These are those who say, ‘I am unable to be this nice basketball participant,’ no matter, soccer participant. ‘However, I can use what I discovered in doing the game to be successful, and joyful, and content material, and admittedly fulfilled.’
This can be a crucial phrase to me. After writing about dependancy, the place individuals searching for blasts of enjoyment, I’ve come to know success as being the deeper factor that we’re searching for. And ‘happiness’ would not fairly get there in my view. So, you are searching for that success. Yeah. The distinction with band is simply so many extra children will be in band than can play soccer. Or basketball, definitely, for that matter.
Russ Roberts: For certain.
Sam Quinones: It is a manner of claiming, ‘We wish all of you to be a part of this lovely expertise of working arduous and competing, and counting on one another. It is not only for the athletes, it is for you, too.’ And, it provides me chills, I get chills proper now speaking to you about this, Russ, saying it is such an exquisite, lovely factor. And once more, after all, so reverse from the dependancy to dope, and the whole lot else we’re hooked on in our tradition that I used to be writing about within the earlier two books. Anyway, it makes me sort of nearly get romantic and carried away. What can I inform you?
Russ Roberts: Yeah. There is a quote, which I would by no means heard, however evidently it is a well-known saying: ‘A musician is somebody who places a $5000 instrument in a $500 automobile to get to a $50 gig.’
Russ Roberts: And naturally, most musicians, they could want it in any other case, however they are not taking part in for the $50. And so they may choose it to be greater than that clearly for his or her taking part in. However, they play for the love of it, and that they will nonetheless play in any respect is–many musicians discover sufficiently rewarding, fulfilling.
Sam Quinones: No, I feel that is why Tuba Christmas continues to be this big factor. Large factor all throughout the nation with hundred of tuba gamers from Kansas Metropolis, Dallas. New York was the place it began. However, down in McAllen, Texas, too. You have obtained all these individuals all throughout the nation who maintain on to their tubas. And other people, differently, who maintain onto their recollections of band.
I am making an attempt to come back up–this is a pipe dream of mine–but in some unspecified time in the future I would prefer to give you some sort of tally of what proportion of People have been at one level in band. I feel it’s possible you’ll be speaking about 20% of the nation in some unspecified time in the future. I do not know if that is true in any respect, after all. However, it appears to me such an vital a part of individuals’s lives that you’d by no means know till you dig down into their dialog with them. After which, hastily you say, ‘Oh, yeah, they performed piccolo.’ Or, ‘Oh, yeah, I performed trombone.’ And, you start to see how vital this endeavor is to creating joyful lives–contented, fulfilled lives. But in addition I imagine that you just be taught in band important elements–elements important to sustaining group in a broader sense.
I can inform you all of this. I additionally discover this lovely as a result of as a journalist, two years in the past I might have had nothing like this to say to you about this venture. I did not know what the venture was about. And, I simply stated, ‘I do know that if I push on into the lives of people who find themselves doing one thing as a result of they find it irresistible that I will discover some superb tales.’ I knew that from previous experiences as a reporter for a few years, and this simply proved it doubly so. It simply was an exquisite expertise. You had on, and on, and on, these weird tales of individuals simply doing something–you know.
Jim Self, nice, nice tuba trainer at USC [University of Southern California], retired. Constructed an unlimited apply corridor on high of his home, 38-feet lengthy. Lengthy sufficient to include the longest sound wave of the bottom registered tuba, which is a 36-foot lengthy sound wave. Why? As a result of he needed to liberate–again, it was a part of liberation. It is what you discover, it liberates so many individuals. ‘I used to be uninterested in taking part in in apply rooms at USC. They’re 10-by-10, constructed for trumpets.’ So, he builds this huge, lovely corridor. I have been in 3 times. It is simply unimaginable.
And, as a result of he needs to unencumber this attractive sound that he can create, and he is by no means been something lower than in love with this lovely sound that he discovered to create as a child, again in his teen years.
Russ Roberts: So, I will choose an odd analogy right here.
Russ Roberts: Some individuals know slightly bit about wine–the beverage. And so they drink it at some stage of seriousness, or not. Some individuals simply say, ‘I do know what I like: I like this wine, I do not know something about it.’ However, different individuals go into it fairly deeply and find out about totally different areas, and the terroir, the soil that the grapes have been grown in, and so forth, and so forth. And, it turns into, I feel for many individuals, a deeply enriching expertise. And it is a part of eating, which is a vital human–eating is an extremely vital human ritual, and so forth.
So, music, I might argue, is one other extremely vital human ritual. And, I am curious–a lot of the book–which we’ve not talked about and I feel you must examine it to essentially recognize it–a lot of the e book is dedicated to the precise title of The Excellent Tuba. It is concerning the bodily manufacturing problem of enhancing the sound that the instrument makes. And, most individuals have heard of a Stradivarius; they perceive that they are these legendary violins which have a singular tone that may by no means be completely recreated, or no less than it feels that manner. And, equally within the tuba world, there are these two legendary tubas that individuals have tried to duplicate. And, among the e book, not a big half, however not a small half, is about that.
However, here is my query for you. You are not a horn participant. You are not a severe musician. You are an off-the-cuff musician I feel, as I’m.
Russ Roberts: However, I like music, and I think you do, too, otherwise you would not have written this e book.
Sam Quinones: Proper, I do.
Russ Roberts: So, I am curious. You are in that hall–that loopy factor that this man constructed on high of his home. You have heard a number of bands in the midst of penning this e book. Clearly–and that is the wine part–among aficionados, there are specific tones and sonic results that transfer them deeply as professionals.
Russ Roberts: You are not knowledgeable. Might you your self style, seize any of that if you have been listening to tuba gamers? Might you say, ‘Oh, that brightness is precisely proper?’ Once more, it is also like winemaking. There’s all this language and jargon round it, and insider language. Did you get that?
Sam Quinones: You recognize, that’s such an incredible query. I do not suppose I did. Truthfully, I do not suppose I did. I feel the place I discovered probably the most profound emotions was in interviews with tuba gamers. Often, my technique of working is I do not do nearly any interviews for simply as soon as for an hour. It is quite a few interviews. And it relies on the individual, on the story, what number of these are. However, it was coming to among the concepts that we have been speaking about is the place I started to really feel, like, elevated.
You bear in mind maybe the primary story within the e book, little Willy Clark, on the time sixth grade, feels he is taking part in the large B-flat notice within the sound of Star Trek, and he is taking the band and so they’re lifting off, and he is doing it himself, and he cannot even imagine it, and, ‘Oh, my God.’ And that notice stayed with Willy Clark. He simply retired at 55 from the Air Drive Ceremonial Band.
You recognize, speaking with individuals who have felt these sorts of issues, and getting them to speak about it, significantly tuba gamers as a result of nobody ever thought anybody would ask them about these experiences. And, after I begin calling individuals round, they’re, like, taking a look at their telephone, like, ‘Who the hell are you, man?’ However, God bless them, each one among them: many individuals needed to speak about this as soon as they realized I used to be not some con artist. [More to come, 56:36]